Map editing

Discussion of tuning specific to MAZDASPEED3/MAZDASPEED Axela/Mazda 3 MPS vehicles
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manselainen
Posts: 109
Joined: October 21st, 2011, 3:56 pm

Re: Map editing

Post by manselainen »

That's practical testing. I try to do the same, only my driving distance is shorter and lots of traffic when going home and who knows where's the man in blue with radar... So far I have been lucky though.
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3 MPS '07, BNR S3, ported IM, VTCS delete, test pipe, PTP HPFP internals, RMM
skiptownmcat
Posts: 383
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Map editing

Post by skiptownmcat »

Decided to cap loads in 3rd gear to 2.0 max, the car is much easier to drive now. I can actually press the accelerator some without wheelspinning like a plank!!
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mituc
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Re: Map editing

Post by mituc »

I don't remember exactly what was it before... 2.2?
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
skiptownmcat
Posts: 383
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Map editing

Post by skiptownmcat »

Yes, 2.2. It's made a huge difference, even though In my app load table I'm not requesting over 2 load before ~80% app I just couldn't seem to press the accelerator over 40% without spinning the wheels (in the wet)
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Schwarzangler82
Posts: 2
Joined: April 1st, 2012, 11:22 am

Re: Map editing

Post by Schwarzangler82 »

can anyone tell which are realistic load targets per gear and rpm to hit with a common bolted speed 3 (means tbe, upgraded ic, hpfp, tip).???

i calibrated maf by multiplying maf tables by 1.125. so far afr is fine now (12.2 @ 3k tappering to 10.8 at 6.5k). my target load map allows max loads of 2.2 from 3k to 7k. so now the question is, what load targets to set per gear at which rpm??!!!

boost comes smooth. full boost at ~3.5k to save the rods. i´ll have to change the wgdc a little to hold boost better during rpm range. i retarded ignition timing a bit from 5k to 6k upwards load 1.37, where i´ve seen some kr of 1.0 from time to time.

best regards!
mituc
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Re: Map editing

Post by mituc »

You can probably target load 2.1 - 2.2 max around 3500-4000rpm and at 6k rpm you should target no more than like 1.65-1.7 on pump gas (even this is way too much, you should stop below 1.6).
Load of 2.2 is totally unrealistinc (and dangerous) because:
- past load 1.6 at 6k you're already pushing flames into the engine but it should be fine for short pulls (so 3rd, maybe 4th gear, in 5th or 6th if you target so much load and hold it you're basically going to torch your engine and possibly blow your pinston rings or even the pistons);
- at load 2.1 at 6k rpm I'm above the limits of the stock MAP sensor and I could test load 2.1 at such high RPM because I have a larger turbo. With the stock k04 I would have never tried to target more than 1.57;
- same boost values feel totally different at different RPM because at higher RPM the air flow is a lot higher (for the same boost values). This means that the turbo will work a lot harder, the WGCD values will be close to 100% which means that the turbine charger will get ALL the heat from the exhaust gases so most probably the turbo shaft will overheat and bend.

Even in the mid range, if you target load values higher than 2.1 my recommendation is to invest in a larger turbo, even in a small big turbo such as a 2871 or 2856 (even though the "insta-spool" of the smaller turbo's combined with the high load targets is what's basically killing these engines).

I'd say that the high load map from the versatune database is what you should look at, I think that the load targets there are a bit overrated already so with the stock turbo I'd say not to go with higher targets than that (unless you have a lot of spare parts, including pistons, an engine block eventually, several K04's :), and so on).

P.S.: you can't calibrate your MAF by scalling up the stock values by a given value. From my experience even the scalling values are an ascending curve compared to stock, so you should think about calibrating your MAF properly and ONLY THEN start the open loop tuning. With a MAF cal sverly off (real fuel trims off by more than like 8-10%) the ECU wil need a lot more to learn all the trims (think about several hundreds of miles) while with a properly done MAF cal you can go WOT safely even after 50-80 miles (or even less if you manage to get your MAF cal within the -3/+1 LTFT limits).
The MAF table values help calculating the load (the load is directly proportional with the air flow, think of load 1 as the maximum this engine can give without a turbo, in its naturally aspirated version).
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
Schwarzangler82
Posts: 2
Joined: April 1st, 2012, 11:22 am

Re: Map editing

Post by Schwarzangler82 »

thanks for your quick reply!

i fully agree with u about overloading the engine will cause excessive wear to its parts.

load is just another word for stress, so power the engine delivers at a point. and of course load is a product of rpm, boost, ignition timing and the afr. the main aim should be to burn as much fuel as possible by as close as possible to lambda 1, within shortest possible time. as far as it wont overstress the hardware. and maf at a specific afr can be compared to delivered power.

and as you told yet the stock k04 is the most load limiting part on a common bolted speed, cause it´s running out of compressor efficiency at a point/rpm and will only blow hot air with very low density of oxygen into the cumbostion chamber.

could u post a screenshot of the load limit map per gear? i mean with max load targets to shoot for with a k04.

kindly regards
mituc
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Re: Map editing

Post by mituc »

I don't have the K04 turbo anymore, but you could start from the High Load map and tune further from there.

P.S.: the load doesn't have anything to do with the afr or ignition, is only about engine displacement and air flow (the afr doesn't really matter, if you run stoechiometric or richer the same amount of oxygen will burn resulting in the same caloric energy, the actual AFR has a role in the post-burn cooling process - which is very important in an engine too).
Take a look here: http://obdcon.sourceforge.net/2010/06/a ... oad-value/ - the absolute load is also explained there (the meaning of the value is the same, no matter the monitoring tool you're using to read it).
Of course, with more aggressive timing the cylinder pressure is higher, but cylinder pressure is a bit different than the absolute load (even though correlated it many ways).
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
Tr51MPS6
Posts: 6
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 7:35 am

Re: Map editing

Post by Tr51MPS6 »

Hello VT users

I have edited based on the High Load Map and what you think about this map, I can not play this in mind?

The MAF calibration is then refined and adjusted thereafter until the rest of the table on my hardware.

My hardware is as follows:

- Wiseco pistons
- Molnar connecting rods
- ACL headbearings
- ARP bolts
- GTX 3076r
- Grimm Speed 3 Port
- 3 "MAF and TIP
- 3 "Downpipe and Catback exhaust
- CORKSPORT TMIC
- HFPF
- Increased cylinder liners
- Reinforced clutch
- Rear engine mount

If I can take without Consider these MAP I'll build on this step by step. There are no preset MAP's for a BT build.

Thank you in advance for your assistance.
Attachments
High Load + MAF and MAP v1.06.zip
MAF Calibration for 3" + 3 Bar Bosch 845 + Grimmspeed 3-Port GTX3076r
(18.2 KiB) Downloaded 701 times
2006 Mazda 6 MPS, GTX3076r, 3" Downpipe Catted + Catback, CS TMIC, 3" MAF+TIP, 3Bar MAP,
Grimmspeed EBCS 3-Port, HPFP Upgrade, Safe Seals, GFB Response, Sure RMM, Sure Anchors short shiftplate
mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 1324
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Map editing

Post by mituc »

The map you attached is a complete mess.
1. the closed loop load limit is 3. the APP limit has various values including 100, so it's not clear when the car will transition from closed loop to open loop. Probably it will not;
2. the BCS DC base table is the stock one. I'm not sure how this will work, probably it will work up to some degree;
3. the BCS DC target load correction table has a +0.35 positive value on the negative side. Not that good if you exceed the target load with 0.2.
4. rev limit set to 7300rpm, but there's 0 requested WGDC above 7k rpm.
5. you're not saying if you have any additional fueling (5th/6th port or meth). But with those target load values you will exceed 110% injector duty cycle quite rapidly at those OL WOT commanded AFRs. At 10.6AFR commanded (0.722 lamda) you're at 100% at 6000rpm and load 2.1-2.15(about 330-340g/s of air). You are commanding 2.3.
6. you are running stock timing tables. At 1 degree of timing and load 2+ you will cook the exhaust valves in 2-3 runs.
7. possibly many others, as a lot of things are from the factory MAP, I just stopped looking because at this point it's clear this MAP will not get you far.

So no, don't run that map. Contact a Versatuner e-tuner ([email protected]). http://www.versatune.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=212
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
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