Map editing

Discussion of tuning specific to MAZDASPEED3/MAZDASPEED Axela/Mazda 3 MPS vehicles
Tr51MPS6
Posts: 6
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 7:35 am

Re: AW: Map editing

Post by Tr51MPS6 »

mituc wrote:The map you attached is a complete mess.
1. the closed loop load limit is 3. the APP limit has various values including 100, so it's not clear when the car will transition from closed loop to open loop. Probably it will not;
2. the BCS DC base table is the stock one. I'm not sure how this will work, probably it will work up to some degree;
3. the BCS DC target load correction table has a +0.35 positive value on the negative side. Not that good if you exceed the target load with 0.2.
4. rev limit set to 7300rpm, but there's 0 requested WGDC above 7k rpm.
5. you're not saying if you have any additional fueling (5th/6th port or meth). But with those target load values you will exceed 110% injector duty cycle quite rapidly at those OL WOT commanded AFRs. At 10.6AFR commanded (0.722 lamda) you're at 100% at 6000rpm and load 2.1-2.15(about 330-340g/s of air). You are commanding 2.3.
6. you are running stock timing tables. At 1 degree of timing and load 2+ you will cook the exhaust valves in 2-3 runs.
7. possibly many others, as a lot of things are from the factory MAP, I just stopped looking because at this point it's clear this MAP will not get you far.

So no, don't run that map. Contact a Versatuner e-tuner ([email protected]). http://www.versatune.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=212
That's why I'm asking here about any damage to cause the car. I think this forum is there to help the people and which is linked to the tables to understand. I do not think that anyone here from birth to these things can. I am here to learn and as helpful tips would be really good. Otherwise, the administrator can delete me, then I have nothing more to look for here!

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2006 Mazda 6 MPS, GTX3076r, 3" Downpipe Catted + Catback, CS TMIC, 3" MAF+TIP, 3Bar MAP,
Grimmspeed EBCS 3-Port, HPFP Upgrade, Safe Seals, GFB Response, Sure RMM, Sure Anchors short shiftplate
mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 1323
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Map editing

Post by mituc »

Every point there is meant to help you by letting you know what's wrong with your tune. They are tips to improve your tune and make it work and also know what to look for in the future, as now you have some dangerous things going on in your tune (especially that positive compensation for positive WGDC difference). I can't understand the sudden change to "Otherwise, the administrator can delete me, then I have nothing more to look for here!".

You can also ignore my post if you find it offensive for the effort you have put in your tune.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
Tr51MPS6
Posts: 6
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 7:35 am

Re: AW: Map editing

Post by Tr51MPS6 »

mituc wrote:Every point there is meant to help you by letting you know what's wrong with your tune. They are tips to improve your tune and make it work and also know what to look for in the future, as now you have some dangerous things going on in your tune (especially that positive compensation for positive WGDC difference). I can't understand the sudden change to "Otherwise, the administrator can delete me, then I have nothing more to look for here!".

You can also ignore my post if you find it offensive for the effort you have put in your tune.
So I just put a high load map and then easily extended. Thought as a basis it should go. I'm going after my new MAP times here, I think the post is better to have some worlds since changed. I want to do with my setup 430-450ps about as long as the injectors join it. I hope you doing some tips to give me what I can improve. I fill 102oktan gasoline.

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2006 Mazda 6 MPS, GTX3076r, 3" Downpipe Catted + Catback, CS TMIC, 3" MAF+TIP, 3Bar MAP,
Grimmspeed EBCS 3-Port, HPFP Upgrade, Safe Seals, GFB Response, Sure RMM, Sure Anchors short shiftplate
Tr51MPS6
Posts: 6
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 7:35 am

Re: Map editing

Post by Tr51MPS6 »

:thumbup
Last edited by Tr51MPS6 on January 20th, 2015, 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2006 Mazda 6 MPS, GTX3076r, 3" Downpipe Catted + Catback, CS TMIC, 3" MAF+TIP, 3Bar MAP,
Grimmspeed EBCS 3-Port, HPFP Upgrade, Safe Seals, GFB Response, Sure RMM, Sure Anchors short shiftplate
Tr51MPS6
Posts: 6
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 7:35 am

Re: Map editing

Post by Tr51MPS6 »

mituc wrote:Every point there is meant to help you by letting you know what's wrong with your tune. They are tips to improve your tune and make it work and also know what to look for in the future, as now you have some dangerous things going on in your tune (especially that positive compensation for positive WGDC difference). I can't understand the sudden change to "Otherwise, the administrator can delete me, then I have nothing more to look for here!".

You can also ignore my post if you find it offensive for the effort you have put in your tune.

Here is my new map is that I'm driving and will not adjust. What do you think, would like to learn something from the experienced tuners something.
I do not drive the map just under full load only when I have to sign in otherwise calm.

One question I have for flashing and logging. What are the most ideal for outdoor temperatures vote? Is there a minimum limit?

I live in Germany and Tanke usually 102 octane BP Ultimate.
As I stated above I want to achieve so about 430-450 hp.
It's all built what is needed for BT. And as boost pressure control system I currently Grimm Speed 3 port mode.

Hope you can help me there.

greeting
Tr51MPS6
Attachments
MPS6 v1.01.vtune.zip
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2006 Mazda 6 MPS, GTX3076r, 3" Downpipe Catted + Catback, CS TMIC, 3" MAF+TIP, 3Bar MAP,
Grimmspeed EBCS 3-Port, HPFP Upgrade, Safe Seals, GFB Response, Sure RMM, Sure Anchors short shiftplate
mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 1323
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Map editing

Post by mituc »

BP102 is good for maximum 1.5-2 more degrees of timing than the OMV100 I use, so maybe you will be able to reach 360-370hp. For 430-450hp you will need to use a water/methanol injection kit (WMI) with a large nozzle (over 800cc/min) and high concentration methanol or other alcohol.

Also when tuning the cars for such power it's highly recommended to contact an e-tuner. Cars that are capable of such power (yours is with very small changes and investments compared to what you already spent so far) usually have expensive parts on them and because of the high potential any mistake in tune can result in very expensive repairs.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
Tr51MPS6
Posts: 6
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 7:35 am

Re: AW: Map editing

Post by Tr51MPS6 »

mituc wrote:BP102 is good for maximum 1.5-2 more degrees of timing than the OMV100 I use, so maybe you will be able to reach 360-370hp. For 430-450hp you will need to use a water/methanol injection kit (WMI) with a large nozzle (over 800cc/min) and high concentration methanol or other alcohol.

Also when tuning the cars for such power it's highly recommended to contact an e-tuner. Cars that are capable of such power (yours is with very small changes and investments compared to what you already spent so far) usually have expensive parts on them and because of the high potential any mistake in tune can result in very expensive repairs.
Ok thank you for the info. Become sit down with someone in connection and optimize the map with him then.

Gesendet von meinem HTC One_M8 mit Tapatalk
2006 Mazda 6 MPS, GTX3076r, 3" Downpipe Catted + Catback, CS TMIC, 3" MAF+TIP, 3Bar MAP,
Grimmspeed EBCS 3-Port, HPFP Upgrade, Safe Seals, GFB Response, Sure RMM, Sure Anchors short shiftplate
EmPeEs6
Posts: 20
Joined: November 25th, 2013, 5:54 pm

Re: Map editing

Post by EmPeEs6 »

Hi all,

can anyone tell me the exact meaning of the table "BCS DC Adjustment - Boost Limit Exceeded"?
Does it refer to the (solely available) boost limit table for throttle closing? Since the correction values are pretty low, it looks more like an incremental adjustment table during some closed loop oreration, moreover the values are exactly the same as the ones on the positive side of the boost error correction table (which ist not available in VT).
Another questions to VT-experts (Steve, Ugnius...): Are the req. load x gear tables really "target load" or more like "load limiting" tables, which probably means an important difference concerning ECU triggered background operations

Moreover, it seems like the "BCS DC Adjustment Limit - Increase" has a maximum (internally accepted) value of 20 although you can enter values up to 100.

Are the req. load multiplier accel/decel tables really only relevant during shifting or variations in app or do they also influence the (constant) WOT behaviour?

After several years of MS tuning experience (including BT, WMI, E85) I can say that this is a really tricky thing because you can't influence or even fully control really all ECU activities (e.g. slight throttle adjustment which have significant more influence on boost/load than comparable wgdc adjustments), even if you understand the underlying boost+load targeting logic in detail.

Thank's!
mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 1323
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Map editing

Post by mituc »

EmPeEs6 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 12:30 am can anyone tell me the exact meaning of the table "BCS DC Adjustment - Boost Limit Exceeded"?
That table is used when the values from the Throttle reduction boost limit (from the Absolute limits section) are reached.
EmPeEs6 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 12:30 am Does it refer to the (solely available) boost limit table for throttle closing? Since the correction values are pretty low, it looks more like an incremental adjustment table during some closed loop oreration, moreover the values are exactly the same as the ones on the positive side of the boost error correction table (which ist not available in VT).
Yes, once those values are hit the WGDC is adjusted accordingly to that correction vector and the throttle starts being closed.

EmPeEs6 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 12:30 am Another questions to VT-experts (Steve, Ugnius...): Are the req. load x gear tables really "target load" or more like "load limiting" tables, which probably means an important difference concerning ECU triggered background operations
They are both target and limit values at the same time. The WGDC values are adjusted so that under certain conditions (WOT) the load will converge towards that target values, meaning that it will be increased if it's below the target, or will be reduced if it's above the target.
EmPeEs6 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 12:30 am Moreover, it seems like the "BCS DC Adjustment Limit - Increase" has a maximum (internally accepted) value of 20 although you can enter values up to 100.
I do not recommend upping to 100 that value. Leave it to 100% only for decreasing, in case of an overboost or overload. If you also set the increase vallue too high the WGDC may spike and because the turbos are laggy you may end up with a very violent correction or even overboost/overload which can destroy an engine. So don't do that, 20% is already too much but ok for a stock turbo.
EmPeEs6 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 12:30 am Are the req. load multiplier accel/decel tables really only relevant during shifting or variations in app or do they also influence the (constant) WOT behaviour?
During shifting, or more like shortly after for like 1-2 seconds or so.
EmPeEs6 wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 12:30 am After several years of MS tuning experience (including BT, WMI, E85) I can say that this is a really tricky thing because you can't influence or even fully control really all ECU activities (e.g. slight throttle adjustment which have significant more influence on boost/load than comparable wgdc adjustments), even if you understand the underlying boost+load targeting logic in detail.
The correction values from all comp tables/vectors are tricky to get right. Once done they work like a charm.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
EmPeEs6
Posts: 20
Joined: November 25th, 2013, 5:54 pm

Re: Map editing

Post by EmPeEs6 »

mituc wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 5:11 am That table is used when the values from the Throttle reduction boost limit (from the Absolute limits section) are reached.
I know, but is it used (directly) before throttle closing operations or simultaneously?
What exactly is the corresponding "closed loop" mechanism to limit boost under overboost conditions - this is still totally unclear...
mituc wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 5:11 am They are both target and limit values at the same time. The WGDC values are adjusted so that under certain conditions (WOT) the load will converge towards that target values, meaning that it will be increased if it's below the target, or will be reduced if it's above the target.
The principle meaning is clear to me, but if they are real limiting tables, I would assume that the ecu not just refers to the req. load x gear tables as final target load (if no other target/limiter table value is set lower) but also tries to keep load below this value under all circumstances, e.g. using throttle position adjustments.
mituc wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 5:11 am I do not recommend upping to 100 that value. Leave it to 100% only for decreasing, in case of an overboost or overload. If you also set the increase vallue too high the WGDC may spike and because the turbos are laggy you may end up with a very violent correction or even overboost/overload which can destroy an engine. So don't do that, 20% is already too much but ok for a stock turbo.
I do not intend to rise the upper limit to values much higher than 20 since this is a quite good value for the oem ebcs (30 or even 40 will never be reched using the stock load error correction values!).
But if the ecu only allows/accepts a max value of 20, why is it possible to enter values up to 100?
BTW: In order to account for season-related extreme changes in ambient temperature, target load (2nd gear for MS3 ;-) ) or base wgdc (because of turbo system limitations in high revs) it absolutely does make sense to allow for a wide range of wgdc corrections if you want to reach your load targets without overboosting/overshooting (at least when using the stock ebcs as I do).
mituc wrote: July 3rd, 2020, 5:11 am The correction values from all comp tables/vectors are tricky to get right. Once done they work like a charm.
Unfortunately, this is not true if there are unknown/unavailable tables, which may have a significant influence on the load targeting logic or any inconsistencies or even "bugs" in the ecu programming logic (e.g. the fact that my ecu simply ignores the target load values for app 100).
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