Help Debugging the High Load OTS tune

Discussion of tuning specific to MAZDASPEED3/MAZDASPEED Axela/Mazda 3 MPS vehicles
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mituc
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Help Debugging the High Load OTS tune

Post by mituc »

I thought we should have a thread like this to discuss the changes we need to do to the OTS tunes to make them reliable, get more power from them and make sure we can use them safely in any wether conditions.

After this experience I described in the CL MAF CAL thread with the High Load MS3/3MPS tune with just a MAF CAL and an increased idle:
mituc wrote:I was just looking at my dashdaq logs and I've seen 270.77g/s from 5823 to 6297 during a 3rd gear pull. Also, during that pull the FRP dropped from 1660 down to 1450 as soon as I've got WOT, it was 1417 from 3968 to 5006 when it dropped to 1357 and stayed so until 5823rpm when it raised to 1795 up until 6297. I have NEVER seen this dangerous FRP drop before so I'd rather tend to believe that it has something to do with the tune and not with my pump. However, the KR was 0 all the time.

In a similar pull the load spiked up to 222 and the FRP was still 1441 or something (boost around 17PSI). I'm going to put hypertech back in tomorrow until someone will help me figure this out because now I'm obviously going to wreck my engine and my car is also slower. I'll review the MAF cal offline and a few other things (even though a slightly off MAF call would not cause this, the ltft's are: min: -7.81, max: 2.33, avg: 2.43.
I've put the hypertech tune back on just to mke sure hardware wise my car is fine. And she is, the FRP is always above 1640PSI at WOT and I have no fear to go WOT anytime, anywhere, in any weather conditions as long as I'm above 3500-3800rpm and the car was running for at least 20-25 minutes.
However, with the high load OTS tune the FRP during 3rd gear pulls was dangerously below 1500PSI even if the commanded AFR and the actual AFR's were only a touch different. I also got a load cut in these conditions, and later I've got FRP spikes up to the limit of the current pump. Getting a load cut is not a big problem (not as big as a more violent fuel cut) but seeing the load at 2.28 while the target is 1.8 and FRP so low I wonder what's wrong.

I know how car engines work, I know how timing advance works, I know pretty much all the important bits in an engine and even in a car (transmissions, clutches, suspension, steering, and so on, as I used to work on go-karts as a kid), what they do and how. However, my ECU tuning experience so far is nil, and seeing several big issues at once makes me wonder if I did a wise move switching between tunes and tuners.

So far I just told you what I've seen and did not provide any logs or proof. I also have logs but they were not taken with VT but with dashdaq (they are CSV logs though). So for now I'm just asking if someone has any idea what went wrong and eventually I can also provide the logs.
I also have a log taken with the VT but the load cut was in 4th and was less violent (and it's pretty large as it contains a few good kilometers of logging, 941 seconds by looking at the Record time fr the first PID in the XML file).
Let me know what you think you need and I'll try to provide it the way you want it.
Last edited by mituc on December 25th, 2011, 7:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
skiptownmcat
Posts: 383
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by skiptownmcat »

Would need to look at the logs really, I never had any of the issues you describe with the ots tune. I do have the kmd internals though so maybe that helped.
I started tweaking the tune pretty much straight away, maybe if you commanded leaner afr there wouldn't be such a strain on the pump?
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Su tmic/corksport intake/kmd internals/grimmspeed ebcs/jbr ssp/forge bpv/3" custom tbe
mituc
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Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by mituc »

The OTS tune is supposed to work on stock cars as well. Not sure how my most relevant flow mods (TMIC and downpipe) interact with that but it may be something in that area and I was too stupid to expect an OTS map to just work.

I'll post all the relevant logs that I have, maybe someone has an idea. If not I guess I'll just have to pay for a PERM tune, since what I paid for so far was a tuning tool and not necessarily an ECU map too.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
skiptownmcat
Posts: 383
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by skiptownmcat »

I have similar mods and didn't see any issues that your getting, if your getting boost cut you could raise the overboost limit by a few kpa but make sure it's not higher than the fuel cut limit.
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Su tmic/corksport intake/kmd internals/grimmspeed ebcs/jbr ssp/forge bpv/3" custom tbe
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manselainen
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Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by manselainen »

High pressure fuel pump internals wouldn't be a bad move. Personally I don't see 1400-1500 psi such a big problem but it's not getting any better if you want to up the loads later. I had the same thing and internals sorted that out, now pressure is almost too high.

Post logs (and why not tune as well) what you have taken during those problems so we could have a look (maybe another pair of eyes can spot something).
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3 MPS '07, BNR S3, ported IM, VTCS delete, test pipe, PTP HPFP internals, RMM
mituc
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Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by mituc »

I intend to get new HPFP internals but for now they are not really required as I don't intend to raise the target loads above 2.
1400-1500PSI is not a big problem but is something to worry about because of at least 2 reasons:
1. the stock FRP anywhere above 2700-300rpm and at least 30% app (or anything that could drive the load around 0.5-0.6) is above 1500 IIRC;
2. the FRP targets in the tune were set to 1670PSI for that interval where I got 1350-1500.
My pump has no problem hitting that pressure, i did today another WOT logs with the Hypertech tune and the FRP was 1665-1683-1725.

As for another pair of eyes... thank you, that's what I'm counting on... as I don't have either enough knowledge or experience with this stuff so I could really use a hand here. I'll prepare an archive with the tune and the most relevant logs I have as soon as I can.

skiptowncat, raising the limits even more may results in a few spots above the safety line with my current mods, and hitting them may do no harm or may result in a vented block 2nd or 3rd time, and that's what I fear most.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071 gen2, ~509BHP @34PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 330-ish BHP
skiptownmcat
Posts: 383
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by skiptownmcat »

What sort of boost are you seeing @wot in 4th? You may just need to tweak the wgdc to prevent the the cut/load spikes. With stock car I would assume the wgdc is set higher than would be required with flow mods thus causing overboost conditions.
Do a 3rd gear pull, change the wgdc table and flash, then do the same in 4th gear. I was hitting 22+psi requesting 2.0 load. I edited the wgdc and never saw over 19.5 after that. Now requesting 2.2 I see 20.5 psi tapering down to 16psi.
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Su tmic/corksport intake/kmd internals/grimmspeed ebcs/jbr ssp/forge bpv/3" custom tbe
lincsmps6
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Joined: November 7th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by lincsmps6 »

Forgive me for being stupid, but what is a OTS tune? Is it a map that you can flash from Versatune or a different tuner?
Cheers...
skiptownmcat
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Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by skiptownmcat »

Off the shelf
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laxplayermjd
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Joined: March 29th, 2010, 11:16 pm

Re: Debugging OTS tunes

Post by laxplayermjd »

almost always with a downpipe, catted or not you will need to upgrade your fuel pump internals!
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