Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Discussion of tuning specific to MAZDASPEED6/MAZDASPEED Atenza/Mazda 6 MPS vehicles
Lolmooses
Posts: 41
Joined: June 16th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by Lolmooses »

Hello, has anyone encountered Desired AFR's not matching what's set in fueling tables? I have 11.5 targeted in every AFR map, but at 3000 during spool up and until around 3500 before hitting max load, it'll target somewhere in the 10's or 11.0. Even after 3500 it still desires 11.2-11.3 instead of 11.5 all the way to redline. Actual AFR' will dip down into the low to mid 10's at 3100 or so and slowly work its way up to 11.5 where I want it at after 3500. This is independent of the MAF voltage, because in 2nd or 3rd gear it hits a different MAF voltage at the beginning of the pull respectively but the same rich condition occurs. I'm assuming this is acceleration enrichment, but there's no table regarding it.
2006 MS6: CS HPFP internals, stage 2 CS intake, CP-E TMIC, CS catback with racepipe, GFB hybrid BOV, CS EBCS

mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 970
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by mituc »

Post'a'long && post'a'tune.
How's the synchronization between the WOT tables, OL tables and CL tables in your tune?
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071, ~476WHP @31-32PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 320-ish BHP

Lolmooses
Posts: 41
Joined: June 16th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by Lolmooses »

I have them all matching from 1.5 onwards since I go into open loop at 1.5 during WOT. I'll get you a proper log with your dashboard setup that you sent me soon, but I did notice something. I had a 2nd gear pull where AFR was nice and smooth and a 3rd gear pull where it went rich. The one thing that stands out between the two is waste gate duty cycle rises upwards smoothly in the 2nd gear pull but in the 3rd gear pull the dip in AFR also follows a large dip in WGDC trying to rein the boost in. It seems like the ECU will add fuel if it detects a large negative correction in WGDC possibly?

Edit: looking at more pulls this happens in every one where WGDC is corrected downwards to prevent overboost.
2006 MS6: CS HPFP internals, stage 2 CS intake, CP-E TMIC, CS catback with racepipe, GFB hybrid BOV, CS EBCS

mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 970
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by mituc »

Lolmooses wrote:
July 31st, 2020, 5:22 am
but in the 3rd gear pull the dip in AFR also follows a large dip in WGDC trying to rein the boost in. It seems like the ECU will add fuel if it detects a large negative correction in WGDC possibly?

Edit: looking at more pulls this happens in every one where WGDC is corrected downwards to prevent overboost.
Yes, fuel enrichment occurs when various corrections are applied, or traction control/stability control kicks in, and so on. You can make those enrichment situations less intrusive if when you flash your tune you check the "Disable Torque Limiter" option. Enrichment and timing retard will still happen but not as much.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071, ~476WHP @31-32PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 320-ish BHP

Lolmooses
Posts: 41
Joined: June 16th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by Lolmooses »

Ive been thinking of disabling that just to see if it makes any kind of difference and you pretty much sealed the deal so I'll give that a shot.

What's an efficient way of trying to get a nice smooth boost curve? I've been trying for a while now but it almost always seems to correct downwards right after the beginning of the pull in every gear above 2nd. This is with a K04, stock downpipe and a CS EBCS.
2006 MS6: CS HPFP internals, stage 2 CS intake, CP-E TMIC, CS catback with racepipe, GFB hybrid BOV, CS EBCS

Lolmooses
Posts: 41
Joined: June 16th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by Lolmooses »

I've been looking into it a bit and it doesn't seem like the MS6's have SWAS. Does disabling the torque limiter do anything for MS6's or is it all tied into the DSC instead?
2006 MS6: CS HPFP internals, stage 2 CS intake, CP-E TMIC, CS catback with racepipe, GFB hybrid BOV, CS EBCS

mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 970
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by mituc »

Do it and re-test, see how it goes.
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071, ~476WHP @31-32PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 320-ish BHP

Lolmooses
Posts: 41
Joined: June 16th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by Lolmooses »

Alright, so I figured out how to get a much smoother WGDC curve and disabled torque reduction. I'm now having instances where it'll go rich and then hit upper 11's and even mid 12's after that. It'll work it way down to 11.5 or so after that, but I'm not sure why the ECU seems to follow whatever it wants sometimes. I have 3 3rd gear pulls uploaded. They go lean between 3300-3800 at around the same MAF voltage which I've already tried adjusting and it doesn't seem to make a difference. It also seems the closer it gets to hitting 2.3, the leaner it'll go.
Attachments
MS6 V37 8_1_20 v37.00.vtune
(124.49 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Pull #3 8-2-20.csv
(2.22 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Pull #2 8-2-20.csv
(2.21 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Pull #1 8-2-20.csv
(2.51 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
2006 MS6: CS HPFP internals, stage 2 CS intake, CP-E TMIC, CS catback with racepipe, GFB hybrid BOV, CS EBCS

mituc
VersaTuner guru
Posts: 970
Joined: December 17th, 2011, 2:47 pm
Location: Iasi/Romania

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by mituc »

Well, first of all the MAF cal in those areas where the AFRs are bouncy is totally inadequate. There are basically 6 consecutive cells from 3.861v to 4.056 in which you have an airflow variation which you should normally see in 3 cells or like 2.5 for the intake you have. 4 consecutive cells have virtually the same airflow values, within 3g/s of each other. This is not ok.
Also, the two MAF cal vectors are not similar. They are not massively different, they are both quite bouncy and have the same basic problem, but they are not even similar which may be a problem (not sure in which conditions but we know they have to be identical, not just similar).

The load target of 2.3 is not reached because in the ambient weather where you take these logs you approach/hit the boost limit before you hit load 2.3. Also, The fuel cut boost limit is basically identical (0.19PSI more is nothing) to the throttle reduction boost limit.
And to end everything the overload protection limit is set below the load targets you're wondering why are not met, so when you get close to 2.3 the fuel is being cut and the AFRs go leaner.
There are also some OL/CL tables not synced in the transition area but that's not important until you will fix the basic calibrations.

So with that tune your car will never perform as expected. I suggest you hire a professional tuner.

P.S.: high BAT load targets 2.3? Are you sure?
P.S.2: 5th and 6th gear load targets lower than factory - is there a reason for that?
2008 Cosmic Blue Mazda 3MPS
Built engine + WMI + GTX3071, ~476WHP @31-32PSI
2008 Icy Blue Mazda CX7
Stock engine and exhaust (YES!!), JBR3" + GTX2867 gen2 + Autotech HPFP, self-tuned to 320-ish BHP

Lolmooses
Posts: 41
Joined: June 16th, 2020, 1:53 pm

Re: Desired AFR not matching whats in tables and rich condition on spool up.

Post by Lolmooses »

Thank you for the honesty, I still have a lot to learn and I plan to keep figuring it all out. As risky as it is sometimes, it's a very enjoyable mental endeavor. I know my MAF cal is pretty crappy, I was working on it until this weird situation started happening. Running 12 AFR at full load was pretty concerning so I decided to put all my time into figuring that out first.

About the MAF vectors, I copy and paste calibration 1 into 2 every time I edit it and they look the same on my end, so I'm not sure what you mean about them not being identical.

I didn't know the ECU would start cutting fuel from just APPROACHING the boost limit target. I thought it only acted once it hit that MAP value. Is this part of some kind of smoothing logic? I'll make changes to the boost limit tables and retest.

The overload protection tables...I noticed IAT is usually lower than BAT hence why 140* and onwards was set lower because I didn't think id actually have IAT's that high after noticing what I mentioned earlier. I'll increase those slightly, log IAT again and reevaluate that as well.

The high load targets for high BAT was just to rule out if maybe that's why my load was plateauing strangely. I know higher BATs can cause issues with detonation but I rarely ever see any serious amount of knock on my pulls when it's been really hot out lately so I decided to just try it and see since I'm still figuring out how this ECU works. I'll change those to more conservative values since that isn't part of my issue.

I never floor it or even really give it any high amount of throttle in 5th or 6th and with the K04 spooling so quickly and these blocks not liking high load low rpm I put a conservative figure in there just to be safe.

I'll post logs again soon. Thanks again for the advice 👍

Update: So I adjusted what I mentioned above (boost fuel cut is at 44 PSI, throttle reduction is at 42.5 PSI and I increased the load fuel cut values to about 2.35-2.4). I'm now hitting load targets ( a little over actually) properly and holding them for longer, but I still have these weird lean spots during a 2nd and 3rd gear pull. The lean spots are now occurring at the same MAF volts range, so I went to adjust the MAF cal, but the numbers just don't make sense. If I adjust the MAF cal to fix the lean spot I'll have values that are higher than the one coming after it which isn't right and I still have that flat area from 3.8 to 4.017 after trying to adjust it. I'm going to test with these skewed values for a pull tomorrow to see if it even puts a dent in that lean spot or if it remains the same. That'll give me some sort of clue at least. I'm suspecting some kind of mechanical issue with my setup at this point regardless, the MAF cal makes no sense. I uploaded the 3rd gear pull as well.
Attachments
3rd Gear Pull 8-02-20.csv
(2.37 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
2006 MS6: CS HPFP internals, stage 2 CS intake, CP-E TMIC, CS catback with racepipe, GFB hybrid BOV, CS EBCS

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